I don't care one way or the other about Michael Voris or Greg Kandra and found the video of Voris at the alternative Rome blognic quite refreshing.
BUT.
Kandra's website is not called REALCATHOLICTV - implying - heck - stating outright - that in this place is found REAL Catholicism.
Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. But when you call yourself and your business (and it is a business) "Real Catholic" it seems to me a certain level of official approbration would not be out of the question.
That said - I'm not aware of anyone trying to shut Voris down. Are you? Are you just ginning up controversy here?
I read Kandra a few times when he was on Beliefnet. He always seemed a shill for the novus ordo (i.e. the lady lector and lay deacon sect). I wouln't trust a word out of his bloody modernist mouth.
If I got hit by an MBTA bus and was lying on Tremont Street bleeding all over Boston Common and Park Street station, if I had my choice between a sendoff benediction from an RC deacon, a Jewish rabbi and an Orthodox priest, I would choose the Orthodox priest, the rabbi and the deacon, in that order. But with the luck of the Irish, I would probably only get the deacon and having been rendered incommunicado with a gaping wound to my skull would have to settle for his novus ordo last rites. Being not yet totally devoid of Christian charity, I would, upon admittance to the narthex behind the Pearly Gates, ask St. Peter to lessen the poor deacon's sojourn in the pit of Purgatory for his invicibly ignorant simulation of the sacerdotal munus.
I realize this completely begs the question as to whether there exist MBTA buses on Tremont Street. I am not a trained theologian so I cannot judge of such things.
As the story makes clear, Michael Voris approached the Archdiocese of Detroit seeking approval of St. Michael's Media as an apostolate. The approval was never granted. According to the Archdiocese, he never fulfilled the required protocol, as mandated by the USCCB.
"The Deacon's Bench" has never sought or desired to be an approved apostolate.
Blessings, Deacon Greg Kandra "The Deacon's Bench"
He applied. He didn't fulfill the protcol by that bastion of orthodoxy 'the usccb'
I guess I din't make my point.
So what.
The USCCB doesn't fulfill the protcol of the Vatican. They have been leading a de facto schism for forty years. Using the usccb as the litmus test is a little like using Charlie Sheen as the arbiter of family values.
Moreocver, 99.9 percent of lay people who apply don't get approval for obvious reasons. The Chancery can't control their own employees much less do they want to take on being responsible for lay people.
I don't know what you were attempting to imply, but the post reads like people can presume from the subterfuge of your illumination that the content of Voris' materials are suspect.
Knowing the actual statistics of who gets diocescan approval vs. the number of applications, there's simply no other conclusion to be drawn by your post other than it was a cheap shot.
Anonymous, In terms of using the name realcatholictv may indeed be stating outright that in his place is found real Catholicism. Frankly, I think those of us who have been putting up with usurping of the canonical rights of the faithful to the name 'catholic' have couldn't agree more that realcatholictv is one of the sources of authentic Catholicism.
One only has to pick up The National Catholic Register, America Magazine or any other apostolate using the word Catholic to spread errors to realize that unless we take the word back ourselves, this is going to go on to poison another generation of Catholics.
The Bishops will do worse than nothing. When they pull the trigger, the teachings of the Church and the Church Christ left us will be their targets. History repeats itself!
Thank you Carol. I wish your response below was in the blog entry itself because not everyone likes to read the comments here (wait, who am I kidding?!)
Ha, Carol. I generally have the opposite effect on readers.
Since you buzzed, I thought I'd have a look at the Deacon's site. It's a hoot. Comments run 16 to 1 against him, so what does he do? Shut off them dang comments!
There can be a problem in using "real" to describe Catholic. I don't have a problem with Voris using it as long as he stays Catholic, which he does nicely. But, as I run with "rad trads," I've come upon some who dare to call trads "real Catholics." My response is yessiree, that's me to a tee: I shed blood while shaving, I sleep on a cushy pillow, I eat three squares a day. Yep, real Catholic, that's me!
Carol: The USCCB doesn't fulfill the protcol of the Vatican. They have been leading a de facto schism for forty years. Using the usccb as the litmus test is a little like using Charlie Sheen as the arbiter of family values.
LOL! And right on the money, Carol. I think Jerry would agree with me that we come here to read YOU! Especially a tell-it-like-it-is line like that one
I liked Voris' "Taliban Catholic" video. If it was John Allen who coined the term, it just shows the mindset of the liberal traditores inside the Church -- willing to use the same smear tactics as their political counterparts. But if there is such a thing then we "Taliban" ought to wage a crusade (the Tenth one!) against all the protestantisers who have polluted the Catholic faith since V2. Out with the "permanent" deacons, liturgical ladies, "eucharistic ministers" altar girls ("serviettes" ?), chancery cheaters, girlie presbyters, absentee peripatetic prelates and the whole damn usccb mafia (as Frank Keating called them).
Is it any wonder the pews are empty and vocations are dead? Let us hope that there are more Vorises to fight the good fight and keep the faith. Better "unapproved" lay apostolates than "approved" ones. Going my neocatechumenal way, anyone?
And remember, Mr. Kandra, if you are reading, the diaconate is properly the last step a young man takes before ordination to the priesthood (not presbyterate). I would not have a deacon marry my children, baptize my grandchildren or anoint my parents. And if you see me lying in the middle of Tremont Street, please perform a spiritual work of mercy and call a rabbi. At least he's a distant cousin of Jesus, not a caricature in Christ's Church.
Just curious. Long before the Second Vatican Council and Pope Paul VI renewed a diaconate permanently exercised, the Catholic Church benefitted from deacons. Given the comments here, I'm wondering how you would characterize the ministry of some of our saints, such as St. Stephen, St. Lawrence, St. Francis, or even the last two "permanent" deacons in the 19th Century, Cardinals Antonelli (Pius IX's Secretary of State) and Mertel (the head of the Roman Rota)?
In your attempt to be "really" Catholic, are you rejecting significant parts of the very Tradition you claim to hold?
Deacon,thanks for your thoughts which I thoroughly agree with. The Church indeed does benefit from deacons. I definitely affirm the avocation of a permanent deacon. I've encouraged numerous friends over the years to join the deaconate.
I do want a priest for my Sacraments. If I were in the wiles of Africa, that would be another story. The problems start to develop when the priest is sitting in the rectory watching baseball and the deacon is performing baptisms. I think also many are scandalized by deacons like Deacon Greg Kandra who position themselves to take pot shots at the teachings of the Church and those who proclaim them.
The spiritual abuse that has taken place over the last 20 years especially has left many people at zero tolerance. It's something a lot of Bishops, priests and deacons don't want to understand or acknowledge.
No, Deacon, I am not actually rejecting the diaconate per se. I acknowledge both its antiquity and its need in the novus ordo church since there aren't enough priests to staff even those churches that haven't been closed. The hyperbole was engendered by my past reading of some of Kandra's posts.
To be clear, I think the minor orders should be revived. A subdeacon chants the Epistle, the deacon the Gospel. In the past, both of those liturgical roles were actually exercised by priests (not presbyters). In the early Church, deacons waited on tables. Perhaps that is their proper function at the novus ordo "meal": waiters. Do away with the EMHC's and let an ordained man distribute Communion. Along those lines, why not restore the subdiaconate to train novus ordo eucharistic busboys, except that that job is done by the altar "servers" handling the sacred vessels with their profane unconsecrated hands.
The proper exercise of the roles of deacon and subdeacon is predicated upon the restoration of the Vetus Ordo, the True Mass. After the schism, in Benedict's "smaller Church", it will be the only Mass.
I myself am unlikely ever to apply for admission to the diaconate. But if the minor orders come back in, I might make a pretty good doorkeeper, the liturgical bouncer. No apostate would get his heretical carcass beyond the vestibule. On second thought, is there a "permanent exorcist" in the novus ordo? There ought to be because the smoke of Satan is blowing pretty thick in the temple of God.
I agree with Carol about the wilds of Africa. But on Tremont Street, I'll still take the Orthodox priest or the rabbi.
"Deacon William T. Ditewig, ordained in 1990, was for five years executive director of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops’ Secretariat for the Diaconate and the Secretariat for Evangelization. He is currently a professor of theology and director of graduate programs in theology at Saint Leo University, near Tampa, Fla"
"In 1967, there were no permanent deacons in the Latin Rite of the Catholic church; today there are more than 35,000. The reasons for this phenomenal growth are fascinating and the future roles for deacons are almost without limit. Here we will discuss the past, present and future of the diaconate."
Impressive credentials but me thinks the usccb and america magazine references will be met with a tin ear?!
Not to worry! I will write for anyone who asks, and in the case of "America", they asked if I would participate in writing on the diaconate. Since that's what I spend a lot of time doing, I agreed.
The history and theology of the diaconate is a fascinating study, one which I've devoted most of the last 25 years to studying. I was also a career Naval officer for more than 20 years, and I've been a deacon now for more than 21 years as well. Several of those years overlapped, since I was still on active duty when ordained.
The biggest concern I have with some of these exchanges here is the failure to understand WHY Vatican II renewed a permanent diaconate. It had almost nothing to do with a shortage of priests, just as the ancient diaconate had nothing to do with a shortage of priests. Deacons had their own ministerial responsibilities then, as we do today. Some of these responsibilities were, and are, sacramental. Others take place in other venues, and one of the principal influences on renewing the diaconate came out of the experiences of the thousands of priest-prisoners at Dachau Concentration Camp before and during WWII. This influence is far too significant to try to do here in a single post, but I have written extensively about it elsewhere. But I further submit that before one dismisses the diaconate out of hand, one should first understand the vision behind the renewal of the Order.
Oh, and to complete the full disclosure: My Ph.D. in Theology is from the Catholic University of America in Washington, DC, where I specialized in Ecclesiology and Sacramental Theology. Yes, I have served at the USCCB for more than five years, and served as a consultant on the diaconate for the Conference before those years and since. I have also served on several diocesan staffs.
I must confess that I very quickly breezed through your article on America and certainly didn't see anything contrary to Church teaching or scandalous. I can clearly see your love for Christ, His Church and the diaconate - and your country!
I don't know the history of the diaconate. I support it, as I've said before -- and all I can tell you is, there are just too many instances when Father is a few feet away but the deacon is carrying out the Sacramental duties of the priest and they have Sister Mary Wearthepants helping him.
There's too much clever positioning to undermine the teachings of the Church and those who want to hear them proclaimed.
You have to understand that there are several things that make us say 'HERE WE GO!' and one of those things is the mention of 'vatican 2'. I understand that it is your springboard to let loose your fire for the diaconate - to teach, preach, inspire.
But the USCCB, America Magazine and others have misled the multitude. Some of them our relatives, friends, people we love. We're skeptics.
There are numerous deacons on EWTN. Few who read here would doubt that those deacons are reserving what the people need from our Consecrated priests - and so the trust is there.
Does that make sense?
Kudos on your accomplishments, no doubt a service of love.
17 comments:
amen
I don't care one way or the other about Michael Voris or Greg Kandra and found the video of Voris at the alternative Rome blognic quite refreshing.
BUT.
Kandra's website is not called REALCATHOLICTV - implying - heck - stating outright - that in this place is found REAL Catholicism.
Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. But when you call yourself and your business (and it is a business) "Real Catholic" it seems to me a certain level of official approbration would not be out of the question.
That said - I'm not aware of anyone trying to shut Voris down. Are you? Are you just ginning up controversy here?
I read Kandra a few times when he was on Beliefnet. He always seemed a shill for the novus ordo (i.e. the lady lector and lay deacon sect). I wouln't trust a word out of his bloody modernist mouth.
If I got hit by an MBTA bus and was lying on Tremont Street bleeding all over Boston Common and Park Street station, if I had my choice between a sendoff benediction from an RC deacon, a Jewish rabbi and an Orthodox priest, I would choose the Orthodox priest, the rabbi and the deacon, in that order. But with the luck of the Irish, I would probably only get the deacon and having been rendered incommunicado with a gaping wound to my skull would have to settle for his novus ordo last rites. Being not yet totally devoid of Christian charity, I would, upon admittance to the narthex behind the Pearly Gates, ask St. Peter to lessen the poor deacon's sojourn in the pit of Purgatory for his invicibly ignorant simulation of the sacerdotal munus.
I realize this completely begs the question as to whether there exist MBTA buses on Tremont Street. I am not a trained theologian so I cannot judge of such things.
FWIW...
As the story makes clear, Michael Voris approached the Archdiocese of Detroit seeking approval of St. Michael's Media as an apostolate. The approval was never granted. According to the Archdiocese, he never fulfilled the required protocol, as mandated by the USCCB.
"The Deacon's Bench" has never sought or desired to be an approved apostolate.
Blessings,
Deacon Greg Kandra
"The Deacon's Bench"
Greg,
I read the post.
He applied. He didn't fulfill the protcol by that bastion of orthodoxy 'the usccb'
I guess I din't make my point.
So what.
The USCCB doesn't fulfill the protcol of the Vatican. They have been leading a de facto schism for forty years. Using the usccb as the litmus test is a little like using Charlie Sheen as the arbiter of family values.
Moreocver, 99.9 percent of lay people who apply don't get approval for obvious reasons. The Chancery can't control their own employees much less do they want to take on being responsible for lay people.
I don't know what you were attempting to imply, but the post reads like people can presume from the subterfuge of your illumination that the content of Voris' materials are suspect.
Knowing the actual statistics of who gets diocescan approval vs. the number of applications, there's simply no other conclusion to be drawn by your post other than it was a cheap shot.
Anonymous, In terms of using the name realcatholictv may indeed be stating outright that in his place is found real Catholicism. Frankly, I think those of us who have been putting up with usurping of the canonical rights of the faithful to the name 'catholic' have couldn't agree more that realcatholictv is one of the sources of authentic Catholicism.
One only has to pick up The National Catholic Register, America Magazine or any other apostolate using the word Catholic to spread errors to realize that unless we take the word back ourselves, this is going to go on to poison another generation of Catholics.
The Bishops will do worse than nothing. When they pull the trigger, the teachings of the Church and the Church Christ left us will be their targets. History repeats itself!
Thank you Carol. I wish your response below was in the blog entry itself because not everyone likes to read the comments here (wait, who am I kidding?!)
Lynne, LOL.
I kinda like me low profile!
p.s. I think it's Jack and Jerry they come to read!
Ha, Carol. I generally have the opposite effect on readers.
Since you buzzed, I thought I'd have a look at the Deacon's site. It's a hoot. Comments run 16 to 1 against him, so what does he do? Shut off them dang comments!
There can be a problem in using "real" to describe Catholic. I don't have a problem with Voris using it as long as he stays Catholic, which he does nicely. But, as I run with "rad trads," I've come upon some who dare to call trads "real Catholics." My response is yessiree, that's me to a tee: I shed blood while shaving, I sleep on a cushy pillow, I eat three squares a day. Yep, real Catholic, that's me!
Carol: The USCCB doesn't fulfill the protcol of the Vatican. They have been leading a de facto schism for forty years. Using the usccb as the litmus test is a little like using Charlie Sheen as the arbiter of family values.
LOL! And right on the money, Carol. I think Jerry would agree with me that we come here to read YOU! Especially a tell-it-like-it-is line like that one
I liked Voris' "Taliban Catholic" video. If it was John Allen who coined the term, it just shows the mindset of the liberal traditores inside the Church -- willing to use the same smear tactics as their political counterparts. But if there is such a thing then we "Taliban" ought to wage a crusade (the Tenth one!) against all the protestantisers who have polluted the Catholic faith since V2. Out with the "permanent" deacons, liturgical ladies, "eucharistic ministers" altar girls ("serviettes" ?), chancery cheaters, girlie presbyters, absentee peripatetic prelates and the whole damn usccb mafia (as Frank Keating called them).
Is it any wonder the pews are empty and vocations are dead? Let us hope that there are more Vorises to fight the good fight and keep the faith. Better "unapproved" lay apostolates than "approved" ones. Going my neocatechumenal way, anyone?
And remember, Mr. Kandra, if you are reading, the diaconate is properly the last step a young man takes before ordination to the priesthood (not presbyterate). I would not have a deacon marry my children, baptize my grandchildren or anoint my parents. And if you see me lying in the middle of Tremont Street, please perform a spiritual work of mercy and call a rabbi. At least he's a distant cousin of Jesus, not a caricature in Christ's Church.
Just curious. Long before the Second Vatican Council and Pope Paul VI renewed a diaconate permanently exercised, the Catholic Church benefitted from deacons. Given the comments here, I'm wondering how you would characterize the ministry of some of our saints, such as St. Stephen, St. Lawrence, St. Francis, or even the last two "permanent" deacons in the 19th Century, Cardinals Antonelli (Pius IX's Secretary of State) and Mertel (the head of the Roman Rota)?
In your attempt to be "really" Catholic, are you rejecting significant parts of the very Tradition you claim to hold?
God bless,
Deacon Bill Ditewig
Deacon,thanks for your thoughts which I thoroughly agree with. The Church indeed does benefit from deacons. I definitely affirm the avocation of a permanent deacon. I've encouraged numerous friends over the years to join the deaconate.
I do want a priest for my Sacraments. If I were in the wiles of Africa, that would be another story. The problems start to develop when the priest is sitting in the rectory watching baseball and the deacon is performing baptisms. I think also many are scandalized by deacons like Deacon Greg Kandra who position themselves to take pot shots at the teachings of the Church and those who proclaim them.
The spiritual abuse that has taken place over the last 20 years especially has left many people at zero tolerance. It's something a lot of Bishops, priests and deacons don't want to understand or acknowledge.
No, Deacon, I am not actually rejecting the diaconate per se. I acknowledge both its antiquity and its need in the novus ordo church since there aren't enough priests to staff even those churches that haven't been closed. The hyperbole was engendered by my past reading of some of Kandra's posts.
To be clear, I think the minor orders should be revived. A subdeacon chants the Epistle, the deacon the Gospel. In the past, both of those liturgical roles were actually exercised by priests (not presbyters). In the early Church, deacons waited on tables. Perhaps that is their proper function at the novus ordo "meal": waiters. Do away with the EMHC's and let an ordained man distribute Communion. Along those lines, why not restore the subdiaconate to train novus ordo eucharistic busboys, except that that job is done by the altar "servers" handling the sacred vessels with their profane unconsecrated hands.
The proper exercise of the roles of deacon and subdeacon is predicated upon the restoration of the Vetus Ordo, the True Mass. After the schism, in Benedict's "smaller Church", it will be the only Mass.
I myself am unlikely ever to apply for admission to the diaconate. But if the minor orders come back in, I might make a pretty good doorkeeper, the liturgical bouncer. No apostate would get his heretical carcass beyond the vestibule. On second thought, is there a "permanent exorcist" in the novus ordo? There ought to be because the smoke of Satan is blowing pretty thick in the temple of God.
I agree with Carol about the wilds of Africa. But on Tremont Street, I'll still take the Orthodox priest or the rabbi.
whoah-oh...
http://www.americamagazine.org/content/article.cfm?article_id=11771
"Deacon William T. Ditewig, ordained in 1990, was for five years executive director of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops’ Secretariat for the Diaconate and the Secretariat for Evangelization. He is currently a professor of theology and director of graduate programs in theology at Saint Leo University, near Tampa, Fla"
http://pilgrimsfootsteps.blogspot.com/2011/01/so-i-leave-town-for-few-days-and-look.html
"In 1967, there were no permanent deacons in the Latin Rite of the Catholic church; today there are more than 35,000. The reasons for this phenomenal growth are fascinating and the future roles for deacons are almost without limit. Here we will discuss the past, present and future of the diaconate."
Impressive credentials but me thinks the usccb and america magazine references will be met with a tin ear?!
Dear Carol,
Not to worry! I will write for anyone who asks, and in the case of "America", they asked if I would participate in writing on the diaconate. Since that's what I spend a lot of time doing, I agreed.
The history and theology of the diaconate is a fascinating study, one which I've devoted most of the last 25 years to studying. I was also a career Naval officer for more than 20 years, and I've been a deacon now for more than 21 years as well. Several of those years overlapped, since I was still on active duty when ordained.
The biggest concern I have with some of these exchanges here is the failure to understand WHY Vatican II renewed a permanent diaconate. It had almost nothing to do with a shortage of priests, just as the ancient diaconate had nothing to do with a shortage of priests. Deacons had their own ministerial responsibilities then, as we do today. Some of these responsibilities were, and are, sacramental. Others take place in other venues, and one of the principal influences on renewing the diaconate came out of the experiences of the thousands of priest-prisoners at Dachau Concentration Camp before and during WWII. This influence is far too significant to try to do here in a single post, but I have written extensively about it elsewhere. But I further submit that before one dismisses the diaconate out of hand, one should first understand the vision behind the renewal of the Order.
Oh, and to complete the full disclosure: My Ph.D. in Theology is from the Catholic University of America in Washington, DC, where I specialized in Ecclesiology and Sacramental Theology. Yes, I have served at the USCCB for more than five years, and served as a consultant on the diaconate for the Conference before those years and since. I have also served on several diocesan staffs.
God bless,
Deacon Bill
Deacon Bill,
I'm glad to see you have a sense of humor.
I must confess that I very quickly breezed through your article on America and certainly didn't see anything contrary to Church teaching or scandalous. I can clearly see your love for Christ, His Church and the diaconate - and your country!
I don't know the history of the diaconate. I support it, as I've said before -- and all I can tell you is, there are just too many instances when Father is a few feet away but the deacon is carrying out the Sacramental duties of the priest and they have Sister Mary Wearthepants helping him.
There's too much clever positioning to undermine the teachings of the Church and those who want to hear them proclaimed.
You have to understand that there are several things that make us say 'HERE WE GO!' and one of those things is the mention of 'vatican 2'. I understand that it is your springboard to let loose your fire for the diaconate - to teach, preach, inspire.
But the USCCB, America Magazine and others have misled the multitude. Some of them our relatives, friends, people we love. We're skeptics.
There are numerous deacons on EWTN. Few who read here would doubt that those deacons are reserving what the people need from our Consecrated priests - and so the trust is there.
Does that make sense?
Kudos on your accomplishments, no doubt a service of love.
Don't you mean the National Catholic Reporter in your comment and not the National Catholic Register as being the one spreading errors? Thanks. Lois
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