Additionally, Boston Catholic Marilyn LoPresti contacted the CDF and Apostolic Nuncio and received assurances that the Pride Mass at St. Cecelia's had been canceled. She was also assured that the Cardinal sent a communication to all pastors: they are to disassociate with the secular Gay Pride celebrations here in Boston and they are not to organize or celebrate such a Mass. These clarifications sent to priests from His Eminence were also supposed to be published in a public media statement.
But in its stead, Boston priests received this peculiar and truncated statement from Terry Donilon:
Good evening,
Recently a Mass was scheduled for St. Cecilia Church in Boston and was publicized in the parish bulletin as being held in conjunction with Gay Pride Week. This created the unintended impression that the Church was endorsing Gay Pride activities. It is not. The Mass has been postponed and will be rescheduled to a later date.
Saint Cecilia Parish is a loving and welcoming faith community and the Catholic Church treats all people with dignity and respect. The Catholic Church’s teachings on homosexuality and the dignity of the human person are rooted in faith and revelation.
Thank you,
Terry
The good news is, the statement clarifies secular festivities of Gay Pride week cannot crescendo in a Catholic Liturgy, and emphasizes the Catholic Church treats ALL PEOPLE with dignity and respect.
That ends the good news.
Now, let us pull out our BS detectors and have a go at the rest of it.
The statement seems to isolate St. Cecelia's as the only Catholic parish in the Archdiocese where gays are welcomed and treated with dignity and respect.
The last thing we need are statements coming from the Archdiocese validating acumen that Catholics-at-large want the Catholic religion to be reserved for heterosexuals.
People are hurt by this message. You're repeating the urban legend that in the Catholic Church, except for a few people, they are rejected.
Nice job fellas.
Thanks be to Jesus this crew was not in place at the time of the Civil War. The South would still be flying the Confederate flag.
Further, the spin the timing and placement of the announcement of a Mass in St. Cecelia's bulletin and Gay Pride Week is all a big misunderstanding is not gelling. Even with the Globe:
Donilon declined to answer questions about the apparent contradiction of the church’s bulletin and his statement.
Statements that nobody can swallow seems to be the public relations policy of this Archdiocese.
Why not just say there was a theological misunderstanding that is pastorally being aligned to outreach programs consistent with Catholic teaching?
He digs himself further into the hole:
He said, however, that there would be a Mass in the future to welcome the community, but not specifically gays and lesbians.
Is there going to be a broader list?
I hope we can move them beyond their fixations on who is sleeping with whom.
I wonder if we can migrate them to focus physical attributes?
How about segregating out parishes for fat people and skinny people?
It could work.
I'll tell you right now, I'm going to the parish that welcomes skinny people. Keep your coffee and donuts. I'm going where there'll be green tea and fruit cups.
I've got just the song for the welcome home Catholics program: Fat kids, skinny kids, kids who climb on rocks, even kids with chicken pox.
Where are they going with this?
Does Donilon believe a Mass in the community to welcome all is something novel?
This is what every other Mass, on any other day, in any other community has been doing for the last 2000 years.
Why is it the policy of the Archbishop to publish the notion that loving and welcoming is reserved to a couple of handfuls of Catholics, and gays must flock to these places or face the hatred stewing in all other parishes?
Can't they see that they are the ones inflicting wounds?
How would you feel if suddenly the Archdiocese set up the dynamic that there are only a few parishes in town where orthodox Catholics are loved and welcomed in accordance with the Catholic religion?
Oh, wait...
:)
The moral of the story is, this is another shining example of how Cardinal O'Malley is dismantling the unity of One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church in Boston.
He is fractioning our religion to places where every priest or every part of town has its own gig. He's made clear that in the future, it will all soon be handed over to the authority of those in these philosophical and structural subdivisions.
There is a set of teachings in the Roman Catholic Church that should be taught in every parish by every priest and should all be consistent with what is taught by the roots of our faith and tradition, the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
All are most definitely welcome.
We listen, we learn, we strive, we struggle, we are tempted, we fall, we repent and we use the Sacraments to amend our lives in accordance with the Deposit of Faith.
Most if not all of us have at one time or another thought some teaching was foolish and resisted accepting and guiding our lives by the teaching. Some of us even have periods in our lives when the teaching was too much of a burden on our own desires and we checked out.
Sometimes, even a priest will derail and come up with an idea that is not theologically sound. There is supposed to be a local shepherd, the Bishop, who rescues his straying priests and brings us all to unity under sound Catholic teaching and theology.
In the absence of this in Boston, things and people with an ax to grind against religion or Catholics are going to pick up the story and use it for ammunition to divide and conquer.
114 comments:
Carol,
Having read the post several observations come to mind.
1.) Kindly learn to proofread your posts prior to posting them. This simple step will enable one to more readily and easily read the screeds you publish.
2.) I would recommend a psych eval for you posthaste.
3.) Since when did detraction and calumny become hallmarks of a faithful Catholic instead of, as I was taught, mortal sins?
Have a great day!
Carol, splendid comments in the Globe article.
The Globe, of course tags believing Roman Catholics as "conservative", while the dissenters and their enablers are presented without description. The same Old Media trickery.
Father Unitarian (eh, I mean Unni) will continue his efforts to balkanize Catholics into his ideological and sexual categories. Unfortunately, the mealy mouthed response of the Archdiocese is not encouraging.The vigilance of local believing Roman Catholics shamed them into taking action. Good work!
Carol, It is interesting that those who despise your faithfulness to Catholic teaching are calling for you to undergo "pysch eval".
Using psychiatry and psychology as political weapons was favored by Soviet communism in the waning days of Brezhnev, Chernenko and Andropov. Similarly, it's a favored tactic of the current crop of those who would use the Church as a tool to promote their sexual and secularizing ideologies. A totalitarian personality will always resort to these underhanded tactics.
Instead of preaching the truth of
things to an unbelieving world
our "Cardinal Sean" seeks to conform to that world.
The Church teaches the dignity of
man and of his sexuality. These sad
people (GAY -GOOD AS YOU)propogate
what is unnatural and destructive to person and anithetical to "community"
To the first commenter, who like most cowards, made your disparaging remarks anonymously:
What's your point, if indeed you have one?
My anomymous comment on "Cardinal
Sean" has to be so as I am an
orthodox priest serving in an
unorthodox archdiocese.
Thanks be to Jesus this crew was not in place at the time of the Civil War. The South would still be flying the Confederate flag.
Wonderful analogy, Carol!
Besides, "this crew" probably would justify slavery as part of the price for not going to war...which, come to think of it, is what you're saying. :)
BTW, have you ever considered making a formal complaint to the Papal Nuncio about O'Malley's apparent recklessness?
My anomymous comment on "Cardinal Sean" has to be so as I am an orthodox priest serving in an unorthodox archdiocese.
Which, I assume, means that you would suffer retribution, otherwise?
Mahony did the same thing in Los Angeles.
Boy, these "princes of the Church" sure think alike, don't they? Who cares about being "progressive" or "traditionalist" when you can intimidate people who disagree w/you.
Maybe "Cardinal Sean" should exchange his brown cassock for a black pinstriped suit and a fedora. Then he should Italianize his last name. Thus would he be a more accurate depiction of what he truly represents and is.
Of course, some knee-high black boots and a Gestapo uniform would do the trick, as well. So would an olive-green uniform w/a red star on the front of the peaked cap...
"My anomymous comment on "Cardinal
Sean" has to be so as I am an
orthodox priest serving in an
unorthodox archdiocese."
I was making reference to the very first comment on this page, which was also made anonymously, not to the specific comments about Cardinal Sean. You didn't make disparaging remarks, the first commenter did. Apologies for any offense to the good Father, as none was intended.
No offense taken.
In our parish we have special
devotion to the "Little Flower."
May the Lord Bless you.
No offense taken.
The "Little Flower" has always
been a favorite of mine.
I wish the Cardinal would make
our Archdiocese a missionary
Church instead of a secular PR machine.
May God continue to bless you.
My anomymous #
You aren't another limp wristed cleric seeking to defame the church, are you? I am SURE it just could not be a JESUIT, right? Who are the bullies?
Bravo, Carol!!!
Thank you Father, I will pray for you, as I do for all priests. You have your work cut out for you. If the cardinal won't make yours a missionary parish, any chance of becoming a personal parish? I'm not exactly sure how that works, but perhaps it's another option.
O'malley should have never enabled
and empowered this group at St Cecilia's parish.
It is run by a homosexual activist, one Richard Ianolli masquerading as a Roman Catholic parishoner there.
This personage is intellectually and spiritually dishonest.
His position is ludicrous - akin to belonging to a labor union but being unalterably oppossed to collective bargaining!
If I were that O'Malley, I would not have cancelled the mass but would have called in John Unni and instructed him to preach the following points in his homily:
(1) homosexual orientation is disordered;
(2) homosexual acts are intrinsically evil,
(3) the only way for a homosexual to live a Catholic life is in perpetual chastity.
An observer from my office would have been present to take notes and depending on Unni's words and actions, I would make the necessary judgement about his future in the priesthood.
If I were that O'Malley, I would not have cancelled the mass but would have called in John Unni and instructed him to preach the following points in his homily:
(1) homosexual orientation is disordered;
(2) homosexual acts are intrinsically evil,
(3) the only way for a homosexual to live a Catholic life is in perpetual chastity.
An observer from my office would have been present to take notes and depending on Unni's words and actions, I would make the necessary judgement about his future in the priesthood.
As the fist comment suggests, this post is so illiterate as to be almost unreadable.
However I felt the need to respond to this garbage:
"The last thing we need are statements coming from the Archdiocese validating acumen [sic] that Catholics-at-large want the Catholic religion to be reserved for heterosexuals.
People are hurt by this message...Can't they see that they are the ones inflicting wounds? "
People are hurt by this message? How myopic and hypocritical do you have to be to say "people are hurt" by THIS message when the Roman Catholic Church has spent centuries vilifying and persecuting gay, lesbian and transgender people, a campaign which continues to this day?
And as for wounds inflicted, look to the extraordinarily high rate of suicide among young queer people, and the studies which demonstrate highly religious families are more dangerous for such youth.
The wounds caused here are by the irrational mistreatment of queer people by this powerful and unaccountable institution: an institution so venal that it has attempted a systematic cover-up of the worldwide abuse and torture of defenseless children.
Anyone who still associates themselves with the Catholic hierarchy after such extraordinary criminality is morally bankrupt, so no wonder why you take this wicked and sickening stance when it comes to welcoming and affirming human beings who are different.
Shame on you.
James, when Jesus encountered the prostitutes and the tax collectors, He not only embraced them, but He also admonished them to "go, and sin no more". If "queer" people, (your terminology, not mine) want to seek forgiveness and healing, that is one thing, but to insist that a disordered lifestyle be made acceptable is quite another. Those who suffer same-sex attraction carry a cross unlike any other. But if "welcoming" these suffering brothers and sisters means embracing their lifestyle and insistence on accepting it, this would more accurately fit the description of morally bankrupt. Our Lady of Fatima said that more people go to Hell because of sins of the flesh than for any other reason. I don't want to go to Hell, and I certainly don't want anyone else to go there. If the desire to save souls is seen as hateful and wicked, well, Jesus never said it would be easy. There is no charity in condoning sex between people of the same gender.
I agree with Jack O'Malley - the only way that Mass could have been permitted to take place is if that message was going to be delivered.
If you don't cherish the disgusting things they do with one another, you're "hateful", "illiterate", "bigoted" and in need of some psychological help.
Homosexuality is a mental illness and that manifests itself every time they go on parade demanding that you accept their buggery.
James,
Catholics have not done a very good job of getting the message across to the gay community that all are welcome at every Mass and every parish every day of the week.
The teachings of the Church are tough for every one of us in our own little worlds but as a community, we want to hear them and we want our families to hear them. As difficult as they are, the Catholic religion is a promise, a fiat, to live our lives by these teachings.
Things start to go awry when there's an effort to silence the teachings and this is certainly not limited to moral teaching on sexuality. Women object to the teachings on contraception, abortion, etc.
Divorced people who are not annulled have to live a celibate life. This is no different than what the Church asks of people with same-sex attraction.
It isn't mean or spiteful for the people in the pews beside us to want their religion preserved in it's entirety, even if it is a terrible burden to us.
Fr. Unni is doing a disservice to his Christ, His Church and the people sitting in his pews, the Sacred Liturgy and to the unity of all Catholics.
James Croft: the Roman Catholic Church has spent centuries vilifying and persecuting gay, lesbian and transgender people,
James, this is a blatant lie. The Church has only ever condemned homosexual acts.
Further, you must realise that your statement about "transgendered" people is risible on the face of it.
First, "transgender" surgery is a modern phenomenon of the medical art and is not centuries old.
Second, "transgendered" people are not so in fact as a simple DNA test will attest.
Third, the Church condemns mutilation of the body, the temple of the Holy Ghost, even such mutilation as tattoos. How much more ought "transgender" surgery to be condemned.
For "gay" and lesbian (alas that the sublime lyricism of Sappho should have ever after tarnished the name of that beautiful island!) people are called by the Church to the same moral strictures as are unmarried heterosexuals. That is to say, to chastity. "Transgendered" people must have contrition when confessing the sin of mutilation of their bodies, since repair of that mutilation is not possible.
Can a Catholic active homosexual devoutly pray the Rosary or say the Angelus with the knowledge that his or her acts make a mockery of Our Lady's chaste and sinless life? Do you now begin to understand that your invective is blasphemy towards God, the Creator and King of the Universe, the Stablisher of the Moral Law? That it reviles His Only-begotten Son whose chaste Life, whose Passion, Death and Resurrection, whose founding of His Church upon Peter were for the sake of your redemption? Or are you so sunken in the slough of sin that you longer care to be redeemed?
James Croft, I have a question for you. If anyone wants to offer true compassion to an alcoholic friend, does he buy that friend a beer? Of course not, for he'd be only greasing the skids as his friend accelerates his dreadful decline to destruction. Rather, he would do anything to help him overcome his vile habit.
True compassion towards those with same-sex attractions would be to help them overcome those disordered attractions, not to inculcate them. Our Lord welcomed sinners where they were - but He never allowed them to remain where they were. He always - always - challenged them to repentance.
James, I followed your profile and noticed that you're an atheist. Therefore, you cannot possibly appeal to an objective standard of right versus wrong, as such transcends human consensus. I wonder then, how you can, with a straight face, tell Catholics that they "should be ashamed". That doesn't fly, my friend, and I'm not letting you get away with that!
I don't know who said this, but I think it bears repeating: "Those who live like there's no God, better be right." They aren't of course. I pray that you and all atheists/humanists come to realization of the truth.
Jack, your confusion of transgender people with people who have had sex change operations demonstrates you profound ignorance of this subject - at last seek to inform yourself before telling people how to live their lives.
As for this - "The Church has only ever condemned homosexual acts" - tell that to the people who have been murdered, mutilated, subjected to fake 'medical' procedures, ostracized, and prevented from seeking political office by people inspired by their religious commitments as shaped by the Catholic Church. In what alternate universe do you live?
I have absolutely no fear of your non-existent God. I only fear hateful bigots like you who seek to enforce your morality on others through social stigma and the courts.
LOL. That's the price you have to pay for 'we welcome all'!
James, again, being an atheist, you have no standard of right vs wrong, love vs hate, that transcends the whims and fancies of human beings. Therefore, you have no intellectual basis to accuse anyone of being "hateful bigots".
Anyone who has murdered or maimed anybody has NOT been "shaped by the Catholic Church", your slanderous statements not withstanding. Those acts are condemned by the Church roundly.
As far as "seeking political office", they can - and do -seek such office. Now whether or not people vote for them is another matter, but please understand that the voters can vote for whomever they wish and for whatever reason they deem best (psst! They have rights, too!).
Speaking of other people having rights, I do believe the original topic regarded a Catholic Mass. Well the Catholic hierarchy has a right to determine what will be acceptable practices within their churches, like it or lump it. It is those who seek to disenfranchise Catholics of the right to the free practice of their faith who are the true "hateful bigots".
"It is those who seek to disenfranchise Catholics of the right to the free practice of their faith who are the true "hateful bigots"."
Do you include the archdiocese of Boston in this description then? Since it was they who prevented the Catholics at St Cecelia's from practicing their faith as they understood ot. I am the one defending their right to practice in this instance!
"being an atheist, you have no standard of right vs wrong, love vs hate, that transcends the whims and fancies of human beings. Therefore, you have no intellectual basis to accuse anyone of being "hateful bigots"."
Reality provides plenty of evidence regarding what promotes human flourishing and what does not, and this provides the only basis for morality we need or can hope to have.
Since there is no good evidence that the entity you credit with providing a foundation for morality actually exists, you are the one without intellectual basis here - your worldview is based on a fantasy!
James, Fr. Unni's ministry at St. Cecelia's is perverting the Catholic religion. The Archdiocese was forced to act when the fraud was exposed.
So, you have it wrong. The Catholics who asked that Christs Holy Sacrifice of the Mass be protected from theological perversion are the people who are protecting the free right to practice our religion.
You cannot convince people who have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and have felt His presence as surely as they have felt the sun on their faces that Christ is a fantasy. It is as laughable as telling a microbiologist that there is no such thing as germs because you can't see them.
The teachings of the Catholic Church and the people who want to hear them is what will prevail until the end of time. That victory was won for us by Christ's Death and Resurrection.
You're talking to the descendants of 2000 years worth of martyrs.
Viva Christo Rey.
James Croft predictably pontificated: tell that to the people who have been murdered, mutilated, subjected to fake 'medical' procedures, ostracized, and prevented from seeking political office by people inspired by their religious commitments as shaped by the Catholic Church.
You're right. How could I have been so blind. The Church did all of those things? Or "inspired" them? The clerical state has always been a haven for homos. You are a bigot of the first order and not worth responding to.
In what alternate universe do you live?
In the only one created by God and subject to His immutable Law.
I have absolutely no fear of your non-existent God.
So your answer my previoius question is in the affirmative. You are an atheist. A law unto yourself. This is no doubt a consequence of your psychopathology and inability to relate normally to women. As you are not a Catholic, why do you come to a Catholic blog to spew your bigotry?
You are a lost soul in this world and the next. You already know you are lost in this world now, don't you? How many failed relationships have you had? How many sordid encounters with unknowns? When will you tire of your squalid mode of living and yearn for something more permanent. The Gospel will be there for you. And you will read it as you grow older and lonelier. The Lord will not abandon you though you have temporarily abandoned Him.
I only fear hateful bigots like you who seek to enforce your morality on others through social stigma and the courts.
I impose no morality on anyone. You can do with your backside what you will. The arse evolved to be a one-way street, pal. It takes no morality to figure that out, just the natural law.
I thought you purported to be Catholic. You aren't. So go to buggery for all I care.
And the courts? LOL! Do you live in the Commonwealth of Sodomchusetts? The perversion of invert "marriage" was imposed by the courts! Social stigma? What about the miscreants and their lurid ostentations during that abominable parade? There was a time the whole lot of them would have been arrested. That time will come again as the world regains its sanity.
Come back with more venom if you must. Clamato in podicem catamiti tui. Ego tibi non auscultabo.
Anyone who has murdered or maimed anybody has NOT been "shaped by the Catholic Church", your slanderous statements not withstanding. Those acts are condemned by the Church roundly.
DC, have you ever heard of Joan of Arc or the Albigensian Crusade? Have you ever heard of the phrase, "Kill them all; God will know his own"? How about the murderous intrigue that permeated the Vatican for centuries?
I'm not saying that those atrocities justify James Croft's attitudes toward homosexuality or Catholicism. But people must be honest about history.
I pity you, Jack O'Malley. So much hatred, and a disturbing obsession with others' sex lives. I so hope one day the light of reason will burn the scales from your eyes and you will know what it is to see clearly.
Adversus solem ne loquitor. Veritas vos liberabit.
James,
Fr. Unni and people like him have been passing out the kookaid that Christ and His Church hate but he 'loves'. His mind is tangled up in his violations of the First Commandment.
He is feeding your anger and rebellion from God so that you will idolize him.
He and people like him prevent listeners from the understanding that people who try to guide us from doing harm to our soul and separating us from God are acts of love, not hate. But like a loving mother who will tell you not to ride your bike without a helmet - the advice isn't borne out of hate, but love.
If Unni had his head screwed on straight, he would and could heal you of your anger. You are paying the heavy price for his obstacle to seeing God's love. In fact, we all are paying that price.
Joseph - when we are talking about just war where people suffering evil and oppression under a dictator, of course God is on one side of that conflict. Yes, God inspires and will supply the people freeing the oppressed.
James is taking this out of context and liken it to what He feels, i.e., Divine Law is 'killing his spirit'.
It's a bogus comparison.
I'm on my way to work so I want everyone to be on their best behavior in the com boxes.
The RCC hierarchy has been criminally tolerant of the homosexual abusers within the clergy.
The recent John Jay study shows that 81% of the clerical abuse cases were same sex abuse against post pubescent males.
This tolerance of homosexual acts by the RCC hierarchy cries out to heaven.
Poor James at war with reality
and our given nature.
Biology is not bigotry!
Things are as they are and no amount of self deception makes
them otherwise.
We must love creation and not
be at war against it.
It's people like you that make me very happy I left the Catholic faith a long time ago. I'll never be back.
You haven't got a chance with fraud
And might as well be true to God!
Joe,
If you've left it then it's time to give up the obsession with the RCC.
Mr. Croft's and your Catholic bashing must fill a pyschic emptiness that (for secularists like yourselves) can only be addressed by a sensitive professional in a therapeutic setting. Good luck in finding one.
It's an astonishing state of mind which considers principled criticism of a hugely powerful and largely unaccountable institution to be a sign of psychological problems. A demonstration of extraordinary arrogance, in fact.
Do you think that gay people should just remain silent while they are denigrated and cast out, while it is made clear they are not welcome, while they are termed "disordered" and "pathological"? I, for one, refuse to allow this immoral institution to insult me and people like me without speaking up. You would do the same were you shown such a lack of compassion.
Tennessee Williams compared the homosexual compulsion to "needing
a fix" and to "the stabbibng of a hypo needle".
All civilizations and peoples have
had strictures against homosexuality as destructive to the person and to civilization.
It is not the institution of the RCC. Natural law is a reality. Try holding your breathe!!
If your criticism was directed at the homosexual clerical abuse and the hierarchy's enabling of such acts, then you would be on very principled ground indeed.
However, your rage against the Magisterium's perennial teaching (based on biblical and natural law grounds) against homosexual acts is grounded in sexual and political ideology at best-as a personal obsession it very well may require a therapeutic response.
Let's repeat the teaching of the Church for the benefit of those blinded by their own unbridled lechery (one of the deadly sins):
Homosexual orientation is objectively disordered. Clearly true as its object is not the opposite sex and cannot lead to the generation of new life.
Homosexual acts are intrinsically evil. True again as they are a perversion of God's purpose in creation. Incidentally, acts of sodomy between a man and a woman are also condemned by the Church. A married couple is also called to chastity.
The term "psychopathology" has not been used by the Church. I used the term in its Greek sense, i.e. sickness of the soul. This is also true since that sickness leads to a rejection of God and the Law of God. Dura lex, sed lex. That Law was promulgated both in the Old Testament and in the New.
The cure is a life of prayer and chastity.
Those who so hate the teachings of the Church, which are the teachings of Christ, that they flout their vice in Catholic venues are clearly deeply troubled and soul-sick. They are seeking approbation of their errors. To interpret correctly another commenter's Latin adage: they are speaking against the sun (the natural law) and against the Son (the Divine Law). The Truth (Christ) will indeed set you free; Error (Satan) will enslave you.
He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Place your trust in Him. Sometimes it takes a lifetime to learn this.
Joseph D'Hippolito,
Your mentioning of the lamentable massacre of Béziers and the revolting command of Arnaud Amaury recalled the old Dominican joke:
-- What are the similarities between the Jesuits and the Dominicans?
-- They were both founded by Spaniards, the Dominicans by St. Dominic and the Jesuits by St. Ignatius of Loyola. They both fought heretics, the Domincans the Albigenses and the Jesuits the Protestants.
-- And what are the differences?
-- Seen any Albigensians lately?
Sometimes the sword is mightier than the pen.
Wyndham Lewis in the 1920's forsaw the destruction of the family with attacks on male's ability to reason. He foresaw the feminization of the male predicting the plague of
of pathics and the neuter gender
now upon us-
"At twenty-five, thirty-five and forty-five one still sees them pouting lisping and sobbing spread eagled on their backs helpless and
inviting caresses like a bald stomached dog." THE ART OF BEING RULED
James Croft, I'm not a homosexual yet I feel embarassed by the insults you had to endure on this thread. Those responses do not reflect what Christian love should be (see I Corinthians 13: 1-13).
James, if Jesus met you, He would not treat you the way that many on this thread have. Nor would he approve of homosexuality. But in the final analysis, those are separate issues.
People can love others while disagreeing with their opinions by not engaging in personal insults that have nothing to do w/the issue at hand.
Many "gay" apologists engage in the same behavior. They say that questioning the social wisdom of supporting same-sex marriage is the exact same thing as supporting the brutalization and murder of Matthew Sheperd. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The former is a legitimate challenge to the "gay" perspective on how best to govern society; the latter is nothing more than evil. Many people (like myself) who question the idea of same-sex marriage want nothing to do w/Sheperd's tormentors. What they did was evil regardless of who their victim was.
I've read WLewis. He was remarkably
insightful and on the verge of entering the Church as evident in his last works.
His friend, the greatest lyrical poet of the 2oth century Roy Campbell became a convert to the Church.
In the Georgiad campbell had some wonderful lines about the decline
of civilization and art that Lewis spoke to deeming them -
Intellectual without intellect
And sexless folk whose sexes intersect.
Mr. D'Hippolito,
You may very well have a job as a dissembling spokesman for the Archdiocese of Boston.
Your broad brushed allegation of personal attacks is shameful. There are very strong indictments of homosexuality. There are very pointed critiques of the homosexual movement and their anti-Catholic agenda.
However, unlike Mr. Croft's personal characterizations of faithful Catholics as "illiterates", "garbage", "morally bankrupt" and "criminals", your indictment does not hold up to scrutiny.
There is no charity in attempting to portray sinful acts as virtue.
Joseph D'Hippolito,
I will pass over your attempt to seize the high ground for display of your own hubris. You clearly know far better than we slugs slithering in the slime what Jesus would or would not do. But The Little Way reminds us what Jesus actually did do: He told them to go and sin no more. It has been pointed out on this thread ad nauseam that homosexual acts are indeed sin, whereas homosexual orientation unacted upon is not. But Mr. Croft as a free-thinking free-feeling free-acting free-mouthing atheistic ignoramus has brought his bigotry, his irrational and uninformed hatred for the Catholic Church to this blog and has personally insulted his hostess on top of it. Will you at least join me in reproving his bumptious discourtesy towards a woman and dereliction as a gentleman? But I for one will counter his vitriol against the Church even if you will not.
I will merely quote for you a relevant verse from the chapter you chose to puff yourself up as the quintessence of non-judgemental always-be-nice Christian charity. Viz., [Caritas] non gaudet super iniquitatem, congaudet autem veritati ([Charity] does not rejoice in iniquity but rejoices with the truth).
As you are a thumper for St. Paul, will you now quote his condemnation of homosexual acts for our Christian edification? The relevant Epistles would be Romans, Galatians as well as that selfsame First Corinthians you have just used to hector us. I leave you to find chapter and verse.
Michael, where have I ever tried to "portray sinful acts as virtue"? For that matter where have I ever said that homosexuality was acceptable? You accuse me of making "broad-brush allegations personal attacks," yet you do the same thing!
Jack O'Malley, knowing what Jesus "would or would not do" is not "hubris." All you have to do is read the NT. Just as The Little Way said, Jesus didn't condemn the adulteress but told her not to sin anymore. If His behavior is consistent, then He would have behaved the same way w/James. He ate and drank with "tax collectors and sinners" because He wanted to make God's love accessable to them. It's that love that will make them change. The "cure" is not an act of the will. The cure is God's Spirit changing the homosexual from within. If you find that to be "non-judgmental always-be-nice Christian charity," then you would have a problem with SS Matthew and Paul, among others, who experienced this "cure" from within for their own sins (and, no, homosexuality was not one of those sins).
Christians are called to imitate Christ, right Jack? If we are called to imitate Him, that means we have to know what He would or would not do, right?
On a more practical level, just because James Croft behaves like a jerk doesn't mean that those who claim to be Christians have the prerogative to behave in kind. The Church doesn't need you to defend it, Michael and Jack. It has survived 2,000-plus years w/o either of you. It will survive another 2,000 years...unless God decides to punish it for forsaking its Petrine commission for secular power, prestige and influence. The pity is that the vast majority of Catholics don't see it coming.
Don't believe me? Look up the vision of Leo XIII.
As Belloc said Christ was not a
"milk sop". He also whipped paople
out of the temple.
The greatest charity is to speak truth to an unbelieving world.
All of the comments on this site
were temperate and reasoned with
the exception of the person who
calls people illiterate and was
aptly educated about many things
including Whydham Lewis.
Joseph,
Well, at least you admit Mr. Croft is a jerk. One step at a time.
But the Church does need Michael and me, and you too Joe. It needs Mr. Croft as well. His presence here betokens an eventual conversion. Trust me.
I'll tell you what. As a concession to your liberal Catholicism, I'm going to take an IRS agent to lunch next week. He lives down the street so I don't have to go into the highways and byways to look for a publican. Besides, in Ireland, a "publican" is a man of highest merit. I'd take a prostitute to lunch too, but Mrs. O'Malley wouldn't let me put it on my "New Evangelization" expense account.
But enough of these ephemeral ecclesiastical disputes. The Bruins are up 4-0 in the first intermission. I still have the faith.
BTW, Joe, where are those Pauline cites you were going to furnish?
Mr. D'Hippolito:
The giving of aid and comfort to a rabid anti-Catholic, under the guise of charity and compassion, I characterize as a vice disguising itself as a virtue.
That you reject homosexuality, as one of the four sins that cries out to heaven, is welcome news. However, it does not mitigate attempts to protect an ideological anti-Catholic's "feelings".
Our Lord did not help relocate the moneychangers from the Temple by means of a social program or small business loans. He turned over their tables and opened up a can of "kick-ass" on them. The plague of sexual depravity cannot be coddled.
Yes, the teaching of the Church is compassionate, however the characterization of the sin cannot be watered down.
Sorry, there are five sins which cry out to heaven, # 1867 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, there are:
(1) Wilful murder - the blood of Abel, [Gen. 4:10]
(2) The sin of the Sodomites, [Gen. 18:20; 19:13]
(3) The cry of the people oppressed in Egypt, [Ex. 3:7-10]
(4) The cry of the foreigner, the widow and the orphan, [Ex. 20:20-22] and
(5) Injustice to the wage earner. [Deut. 24:14-5; Jas. 5:4]
The refernce to Jesus and his opening of the can of "kick-ass" may actually have been a can of "whoop-ass". Biblical scholars are divided on the issue. The effects are the same.
So Carol,
Father Unni says he is hurt by the bloggers who spoke out against him and his parish. If the archdiocese in its spokesman is not going to teach the Truth, do you think the Boston Bloggers could write an op-ed piece together detailing the very good reasons for the Catholic teaching on homosexuality? I'm serious. Some one has to tell the Truth, and it looks like God has put you into a position to do it.
M
M, Me thinks that is his Bishop's job. There are more developments on this story coming in the next few days so stay tuned.
Meanwhile, there are more gripping photos of Weiner and a debate to talk about. I was tied up and couldn't watch. Was it a disaster?
What do you mean, there are more developments coming? Such as?
"Priest says all are welcome in his church Supports gays, lesbians after Mass was canceled June 13, 2011
By Laura J. Nelson, Globe Correspondent
"About 200 members of the congregation wore buttons that displayed a cross…Sunday Mass at St. Cecilia’s Church in the Back Bay brought the first standing ovation any parishioner could remember.
During the first Mass since the Archdiocese of Boston canceled one planned for next weekend in support of St. Cecilia’s gay and lesbian churchgoers, the Rev. John J. Unni preached a fiery message of unconditional love and what he called “acceptance of all.’’
“You are welcome here, gay or straight, rich or poor, young or old, black or white,’’ Unni said as he paced up and down the center aisle. “Here, you all can say, ‘I can worship the God who made me as I am.’ ’’
BOSTON.COM
America Magazine is, what else, pleased as punch.Looks like this story is far from over.
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH 2358 'The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.'
So, as heterosexuals, the first concern one might want to have, rather than looking outwards, to the homosexual, is to look inwards, to see how well or how poorly, I am responding to the teachings of the church regarding my attitude and treatment of homosexuals? Am I known, for my respect, compassion, and sensitivity towards homosexuals? Do I avoid EVERY sign of unjust discrimination in their regard? Am I known for this? People won't approach me if I'm known for judgmental finger pointing but thankfully, I am not allowed to do that, as a catholic, am I?
Do I befriend and encourage, through my own lived out example of self mastery and Christian witness, to a homosexual person that helps them to know and believe and begin to trust, in a God who loves them so much?
Do I believe God loves them, truly? Do I love them, truly? Have I allowed the Holy Spirit to shine His light on my heart in this area? To know me, to root out any prejudice I may have harboured along the way?
Personally, I find often, that by the time I tidy up my side of the street, it's much easier to see what's really tripping me up. I can be long sighted sometimes, when all the while the garbage that needs picking up and dealing with is right under my own nose, on my side of the pavement!
still, I'm a work in progrees, like most of us, I guess.
But when people are using the Church to justify their sin
then we must speak out.
This is the essence of charity.
As to applause in Church, something is wrong - the crowd always prefers a Barrabus to Christ!
Patrick said:
"But when people are using the Church to justify their sin
then we must speak out.
This is the essence of charity."
Oh yes, I agree. When people are doing that, we must definitely speak out, or comment.
The radical homosexual movement has identified the RCC as Enemy#1.
They use calumny, distortion and unbridled hatred to achieve their goal to, at a minimum, quarantine Roman Catholics from the public square.
Of course, the perennial teaching of the RCC has been compassion in dealing with the individual homosexual person, as outlined beautifully in then Cardinal Ratzinger's CDF statement:"On the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons".
However, when faced with a political and ideological campaign by extremists, faithful Catholiics must not be disarmed in responding to campaigns to neuter the Church's Magisterium. We must respond forcefully, swiftly and with all the tools in our arsenals.
I was amazed by the restraint that commentators on this blog used in responding effectively to the anti-Catholic extremists.
Breathnach said :"I was amazed by the restraint that commentators on this blog used in responding effectively to the anti-Catholic extremists."
Really? I didn't find the responses that restrained myself, for example....
'Homosexuality is a mental illness and that manifests itself every time they go on parade demanding that you accept their buggery.'
'Tennessee Williams compared the homosexual compulsion to "needing
a fix" and to "the stabbibng of a hypo needle".
'So your answer my previoius question is in the affirmative. You are an atheist. A law unto yourself. This is no doubt a consequence of your psychopathology and inability to relate normally to women. As you are not a Catholic, why do you come to a Catholic blog to spew your bigotry? '
'Of course, some knee-high black boots and a Gestapo uniform would do the trick, as well. So would an olive-green uniform w/a red star on the front of the peaked cap...'
'Do you now begin to understand that your invective is blasphemy towards God, the Creator and King of the Universe....... Or are you so sunken in the slough of sin that you longer care to be redeemed?'
'The Church teaches the dignity of
man and of his sexuality. These sad
people (GAY -GOOD AS YOU)propogate
what is unnatural and destructive to person and anithetical to "community"'
'Poor James at war with reality
and our given nature.
Biology is not bigotry!
Things are as they are and no amount of self deception makes
them otherwise.'
'Mr. Croft's and your Catholic bashing must fill a pyschic emptiness that (for secularists like yourselves) can only be addressed by a sensitive professional in a therapeutic setting. Good luck in finding one.'
'It is not the institution of the RCC. Natural law is a reality. Try holding your breathe!!'
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH 2358 'The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
shadow,
Your litany of perceived slights against homosexuals is without merit.
The following are taken from the aforementioned CDF statement on the care of homosexual persons. They are more hard hitting than some of the polemics you have quoted from commentators:
"To chose someone of the same sex for one's sexual activity is to annul the rich symbolism and meaning, not to mention the goals, of the Creator's sexual design. Homosexual activity is not a complementary union, able to transmit life; and so it thwarts the call to a life of that form of self-giving which the Gospel says is the essence of Christian living. This does not mean that homosexual persons are not often generous and giving of themselves; but when they engage in homosexual activity they confirm within themselves a disordered sexual inclination which is essentially self-indulgent."
"All support should be withdrawn from any organizations which seek to undermine the teaching of the Church, which are ambiguous about it, or which neglect it entirely. Such support, or even the semblance of such support, can be gravely misinterpreted. Special attention should be given to the practice of scheduling religious services and to the use of Church buildings by these groups, including the facilities of Catholic schools and colleges. To some, such permission to use Church property may seem only just and charitable; but in reality it is contradictory to the purpose for which these institutions were founded, it is misleading and often scandalous."
"Therefore special concern and pastoral attention should be directed toward those who have this condition, lest they be led to believe that the living out of this orientation in homosexual activity is a morally acceptable option. It is not."
Now I will address my contribution that you single out as, I suppose,uncharitable:
'Mr. Croft's and your Catholic bashing must fill a pyschic emptiness that (for secularists like yourselves) can only be addressed by a sensitive professional in a therapeutic setting. Good luck in finding one.'
I completely stand by this statement. It in no way slurs Croft or the other person for their homosexuality, instead it attacks their ideological and hateful methods of attack against Catholics as..."haters" "criminals" and "illiterates".
I do believe unbridled rage is a spiritual and pyschic disease, therefore I suggested a secular remedy for their rage.
Shadowlands,
Your quote from the CCC is incomplete and I question your dubious editorial license.
The other relevant quotes from the CCC are :
Chastity and homosexuality
2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
Michael,
you question my alleged dubious editing do you? Perhaps you find it hard to trust people generally?
Let me say, I did not pick and choose to 'win' an argument. You don't have to justify the way you talk to and about homosexuals, to me. Only to God.
I have not said what I have said, to get into a battle with you all. I have said it, because I believe it. Whatever the outcome of what I say, is not in my power, nor indeed any of my business.
But I could not stay silent, in this instance, without being dishonest to my own professed beliefs.
I have said what it is in my heart.
Shadowlands,
Pointing out passages (that are directly relevant) from the CCC was not intended to enter a "battle" with you. I don't consider civil discussions military confrontations.
My "trust quotient" does not come into play when engaging in rational arguments on the internet. I scrutinized your posting and did find your selective quotation to be woefully inadequate.
There's no need to search within the dark recesses of my soul in hopes of finding a paranoid.
Shadowlands (Terrae umbrosae),
Shame on you doing such an uncharitable and unnice thing as using out-of-context quotes to indict fellow Catholics. And then not even citing the slurs of the misguided individual whose contumelies we were refuting. Get thee to a confessional.
For your penance, say three Our Fathers and three Hail Marys and make a good Act of Contrition. Go and sin no more.
Sentire cum Ecclesia, Shadowlands. Sentire cum Ecclesia.
Now you have the Latin for your Lewis-inspired moniker. A gift from me to you. God bless you.
Gentlemen,
You've been busy, busy!
I don't completely subscribe to Joe and shadowland's assertions, but come on, let us admit that a few of those quotes are a wee bit over the top.
I understand this man's pain comes from feeling rejection, but an atheist from out of town using bullying to imply the teachings of the Catholic Church have no place in the Catholic Church is going to get a push back.
It's tough to find the right balance between using the opportunity to bandage his wounds while still making it clear the teachings of the Church will be proclaimed.
As Fr. Unni and his congregation demonstrate, people who want the teachings of the Church taught are the furthest thing from welcome - so 'we welcome all' is a lot of hooey. This is not something that we can continue.
Would they ban and burn Tennesee Williams and all his works?
And the great truth teller W.Lewis
ad all his art and books would they be put to the flame too because he affirmed our basic human nature?
These people are really haters of reality and totalitarians!
To Fr Unni
Thou art in error, trouble me not with your righteousness. The Church has innocense to defend and ignorance to instruct.
If Fr Unni cannot accept the beautiful teachings of the RCC
on human sexuality then why has he not the courage to leave the Church
instead of being a hypocrite?
Resign!
Shadowlands,
Please check out the Boston Globe comments section whenever a story involving the RCC is posted.
You will see an orgy of hatred, abuse and vileness against RCC clergy and laity that is disgusting to behold. The majority of this vileness is committed by homosexual activists who are committed to the destruction of the Church.
Your compassion for anti-Catholics and homosexual extremists might be useful in trying to get through to these diseased souls. Just a friendly suggestion for a possible avenue of evangelization.
The important thing to remember
is the faithfulness of the laity have achived this great reprimand and victory over the secularist
priest Fr Unni.
Unlike the Roman Catholic Church which challenges us to reorder ourselves and repent Fr Unni
preaches a regeneration which requires neither repentence nor an inward reordering.
Jack O'Malley said:
"Shame on you doing such an uncharitable and unnice thing as using out-of-context quotes to indict fellow Catholics. And then not even citing the slurs of the misguided individual whose contumelies we were refuting. Get thee to a confessional."
Just redressing the balance Mr O'Malley, just redressing the balance.
Thank you for the Latin form of my username, but when I looked it up, it said something other than shadowlands though?
I love C S Lewis, but in a very amateurish and unlearned way compared to most of his adherents. I've been to his birthplace in Ireland and Oxford and Headington (the Kilns), I prayed at his grave and had a wonderful experience of his presence(peace) and I also knelt in his pew (actually, it was his brother Warnie's seat, I got mixed up). Oh sorry, I've gone down a rabbit hole. Ooops! I do do that. It's from being chased away so often maybe haha!
"I understand this man's pain comes from feeling rejection, but an atheist from out of town using bullying to imply the teachings of the Catholic Church have no place in the Catholic Church is going to get a push back."
I am not meaningfully "from out of town" anymore - I've lived and worked here for years, and I do not see what I have said as "bullying". I have used strong words to express my moral condemnation of the Catholic Church and particularly its current hierarchy, but since I'm in a minority here it's hard to argue I have any power to "bully" others.
I stand by what I have said, and proudly. It is my considered judgment that the RCC causes enormous suffering and misery to millions and is complicity in a criminal coverup of numerous cases of child abuse, torture and (as is coming out now) essentially trafficking and slavery. The current Pope is directly implicated in some of this - we have all seen the offending documents and witnessed the continuing refusal to work with law enforcement.
Given this appalling record I find it hypocritical and rank to the highest degree for the same institution to lecture people like me on sexual morality - a parable involving beams and motes comes to mind.
The stunningly grotesque responses my position has evoked is evidence of real heat around this issue - more heat than I have ever seen expended by a Catholic against the current pedophile-protecting Pope. Priorities, people?
Some here have suggested I'm angry - and to an extent I am. I'm angry at any institution that wallows in injustice and refuses to bring criminals to heel. I'd expect the same anger from any moral person. But I am not consumed with rage. I simply seek a more just world and realize that a certain amount of righteous anger is a useful tool to motivate action.
Further, numerous individuals here have displayed profound ignorance regarding gay and transgender people, confusing transgender people with those who have had a sex change (not the same!) and assuming all gay people engage in anal sex (or 'sodomy') when many do not - believe me, it's a hassle!
I do not believe that when I make love to a partner /partners what I am doing is either "disgusting" or "disordered". Even if it were, it doesn't harm anybody else and gives the participants great pleasure. Even if I accepted Catholic metaphysics (which are backed by zero evidence) it's my choice to live my life as I wish. I expect others to grant me the dignity of allowing me to make my own choices as long as they don't harm others.
To judge and condemn others whom you do not even remotely understand is wicked. To do so with such glee and relish is simply evil.
Not all Catholics behave in this way, and many interpret their faith in such a way that does allow others dignity and freedom. I exempt Joseph from this criticism, for example, because he seems to understand how to engage in a reasonable discussion.
Those who seek to denigrate people like me, and who then attempt to hide behind false horror when someone takes them and the institution they support to task, are acting disingenuously. We are both making moral judgments here: it's just that mine are based squarely in the real world.
shadowlands, we all appreciate and welcome your contributions.
The conversation is lively for sure, but not venomous - even from James at this point.
James,
What you don't realize is, all of us have been in your shoes. Not about this teaching of course, but certainly others.
As a woman, the 'all male priesthood' went right to the heart of my personhood and I felt cast off in similar ways that gays feel. The teachings define who I sleep with, when, how and they even define the quality of that sexual act, in that I must be open to life.
The difference between you and other readers here is, the struggle is over for us. Our love for God grew so deeply that we no longer approach the relationship with selfish desires. Just like in a human relationship, we give things up because He asks us to and we want to please Him. Into His Hands, we commend our spirit.
We understand all too well the feelings you have.
The teachings of Christ's Church are what they are. You have every 'right' to believe whatever the culture wants to lead you to believe. These are your civil rights.
Our Mass is the Holy Sacrifice of Christ, His Passion and His Death and His Resurrection.
Celebrations of who we're sleeping with, in rebellion of Church teaching don't belong there. If you're going to stampede our Sanctuaries insisting we accept what the culture is teaching you, the fur is going to start flying and the priests poisoning the souls in the pew are going to find themselves in an embarrassing position.
It's an internal fight that has to be fought. Please accept our apologies for how the newspapers pick the story up and use it to manipulate your emotions. We have no control over it.
We want the teachings of the Church proclaimed to us and our children and our community. These are the civil rights of Roman Catholics. It's non-negotiable.
btw - You're not going to get any argument from me or anyone here about the internal corruption inside of the Church. What you say is exaggerated, but there are many inside of the Church who are corrupt and downright evil. Many of us are working on that corruption.
Just like the government is stacked to the rafters with the corrupt, that doesn't then vilify the institution itself. Weiners and the perverts like him have nothing to do with our Constitution and three branches of government.
The Roman Catholic Church is the Mystical Body of Christ. The are vultures, thieves and perverts have nothing to do with the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity that Christ left for us.
One must repent and reorder oneself
not look for affirmation from others for our sins and in living below our human nature.
I tried putting batteries in a radio backward and it does not work.
All societies have condemned homosexaulity. Socrates called the a disorder the most unholy of things.
It is a distateful vulgarity to be parading that age old sin and expecting accolades from civil order.
"The conversation is lively for sure, but not venomous - even from James at this point."
Nor has it ever been "venomous" from me, I think. It's interesting the double standards that pervade here.
"The difference between you and other readers here is, the struggle is over for us."
I assure you, I experience no sense of struggle whatsoever. The continual assumption that those with different beliefs are just more or less on the way to believing what you believe is very arrogant. I have a completely different set of premises to you, which I find entirely satisfactory. I don't experience a "struggle" which needs to be resolved.
An essential difference between my position and yours is that mine is more life-affirming. I accept people's choices regarding their own lives, and affirm them when they produce joy and satisfaction. You would have people like me deny themselves happiness for an unsure future reward. It's very very unconvincing.
It's also damaging. Young queer people feel miserable and hated when they hear these messages, regardless how "nicely" they are put. The message that you are inherently disordered and sick is not possible to sugar-coat. Plenty of empirical evidence demonstrates the devastating effects these messages have. Given that the teachings of the RCC regarding homosexuality are not supported by any evidence whatsoever, it is particularly pernicious that they are so forcefully promoted.
Simply put, these teachings harm real people in this life. There is no way that they can be presented that they will not. There is a moral responsibility here to consider the damage that you are doing.
They feel miserable because it is disordered and one will never find happiness there. They hurt themselves but the Church offers the blood of the lamb all we sinners must be washed in.
You have to open your heart to Love and not go around declaring you are better than anyone else.
The Church's teaching are difficult as Chesterton said but not impossibe. It is rather sanity preached to a planet of lunatics.
I was touched and deeply moved by one writer's comments in this blog from Tennessee Williams, a non catholic on the very nature of this compulsion which cries out for help..
Malcolm said: (to me, re visiting the Boston Globe combox))
"Your compassion for anti-Catholics and homosexual extremists might be useful in trying to get through to these diseased souls. Just a friendly suggestion for a possible avenue of evangelization."
I find your description of homosexuals as diseased souls particularly offensive Malcolm, God only knows how hurtful these insulting terms are to the fearfully and wonderfully made creation(God's description of his son or daughter) affected personally by them. Re your suggestion of evangelisation in other comboxes, my asking Catholics to search their own hearts with the light of the Holy Spirit didn't go down too well, why would you suppose I would have more success with non-believers or anti-catholics? If I go there proclaiming a God reconciling man to Himself, yet am unable to be reconciled with you, my fellow brother in Christ, how foolish would that appear? Nope, I'll stick with the calling I feel God has given me. To encourage Catholics and Christians to search their own hearts first, repent to Jesus Christ of any prejudice and ill treatment, through the use of word, action or deed, towards LGBT people, then let homosexuals know that they are loved very dearly, by God and also Our Lady(because that is the truth). Catholics and Christians 'tell' homosexuals to repent, how about we show them, through our witness and acknowledgment of wrong doing first?
If we resist the call to repent as believers, why would we judge non-believers, for doing the same? Maybe through a diseased soul nesting in our own being, eh? I just think it's a good idea to start with the man/woman in the mirror first.
Carol, thanks for providing a forum where a rigorous and humane defense of the Roman Catholic Faith can take place.
Unfortunately, there are factions among us, who believe that a supernatural faith is subject to sexual and political ideologies.
Any deviation from an affirmation of their predilections is met with a political and social campaign to ostracize.
Believing Catholics will not sit by and allow their Faith to be deconstructed by those who would like to eliminate it from the public square.
"If I go there proclaiming a God reconciling man to Himself, yet am unable to be reconciled with you, my fellow brother in Christ, how foolish would that appear?"
It might appear heroic and saintly. Whereas your continuous proclamations of your superior compassion and preternatural moral acuity vis a vis Catholics on this site, who are calling out for truthful representation of Catholic teaching, seems rather staged.
I will leave to God to judge my characterization of "diseased souls".
I'm not quite convinced that you will be passing me through the pearly gates. Cordially.
"I will leave to God to judge my characterization of "diseased souls"."
And will you leave to God too the responsibility for the harm you cause when you use such slurs against fellow human beings? Or do you take moral responsibility for yourself?
James,
when I choose (or the state coerces me) to subject myself to your secular inquisition, I will present myself for re-education.
Till then I stand by my statement.
James, being "queer" is by no means the only "disordered" lifestyle in our culture. I did things in my past that the church considers disordered. I answered the call to amend my ways. If you are an atheist, you probably cannot relate to or accept this, but I was willing to give up my own will for something greater. I would submit to you that in our present political culture, it's more acceptable to be "out of the closet" and sexually active with a member of the same sex than it is to be Roman Catholic. My faith has nothing to do with the men who make up the hierarchy of the Catholic Church. It has everything to do with the Foundation of the Church - Jesus Christ - Who, whether you like it or believe it or not - loves you as much as He loves me. There isn't a person who has commented on this blog who hasn't lifted you up in prayer, I guarantee you. When I was wallowing in sin, I rebuked anyone who prayed for me. I can only thank God they ignored me. You may not think you're suffering, just as I was dead-sure I was happy as a lark doing my own will and thumbing my nose at God. I got out of the burning house in time and I don't want anyone else left behind to perish, even you.
" I've lived and worked here for years, and I do not see what I have said as "bullying". I have used strong words to express my moral condemnation"
"Nor has it ever been "venomous" from me, I think. It's interesting the double standards that pervade here."
James, People here in this forum would say the same thing about their moral condemnation. If you're going to dish it out, you can't go boo-hooing about "damage" somebody's counterpoint is doing.
Big girls and boys discuss things here.
"I assure you, I experience no sense of struggle whatsoever."
You say that like it's a good thing - lol. I can tell you from experience, it isn't good.
"An essential difference between my position and yours is that mine is more life-affirming."
That's your opinion which you are entitled to. For people who believe God is their creator of life and they have surrendered their positions to please Him, we decline opportunities to proclaim your position inside of our Churches. This is the beauty of America and the Constitution.
"I accept people's choices regarding their own lives, and affirm them when they produce joy and satisfaction."
Wow. You accept people's choices regarding their own lives.
Is that right?
Well then, I some wonderful news for you: Catholics choose to produce joy and satisfaction when they teach, live by and affirm the teachings of our Church.
"You would have people like me deny themselves happiness for an unsure future reward. It's very very unconvincing."
Knock yourselves out James.
This controversy is about a Roman Catholic priest who is depriving Catholics in the pews the teaching of the Church and their salvation and making the Memorial Service of Christ's Death on the Cross, Our Sacred Liturgy into something that was a theological seduction.
He has been stopped. He tried to lie his way out of his embarrassment but everybody in the Catholic Church who is faithful to Church teaching now knows what he is. He has deleted the misleading content of his blog on his parish website. He will be watched and recorded. Under a microscope. His goose is cooked. Not only is his goose cooked, several others who have been misleading souls are scurrying around cleaning up their acts.
"It's also damaging. Young queer people feel miserable and hated when they hear these messages, regardless how "nicely" they are put. The message that you are inherently disordered and sick is not possible to sugar-coat. "Simply put, these teachings harm real people in this life. There is no way that they can be presented that they will not. There is a moral responsibility here to consider the damage that you are doing. "
What I've been trying to tell you James is, young queer people aren't alone. They are welcome to join women, single Catholics, Sacramentally married Catholics - all who by accepting the Blessed Body and Blood of Our Lord and saying "AMEN" are renewing their vows to remain in communion with the teachings of the Church.
What isn't welcome are priest who decline to teach Church teaching to extract money out of your wallets. That's what Fr. Unni is, a fundraiser. We are just as vocal about priests withholding the teachings of contraception and abortion - or any other teaching for that matter.
"Given that the teachings of the RCC regarding homosexuality are not supported by any evidence whatsoever, it is particularly pernicious that they are so forcefully promoted.
Your problem with that theory is the body of evidence lying natural law and the biology of reproducing.
As you say above, you are very, very unconvincing!
Shadowland,
I consider anyone caught in the vice of any sin somebody whose soul needs a physician. So did Christ. That is why His Church and His priests are called physicians of the soul.
I don't think anyone has any delusions that an unrepentant an d hardened sinner of any kind has a reservation in hell waiting for them.
The people here know their lives have to stay on course. We are all on our guard watching our flaws and weaknesses and striving not to trip and fall into a temptation.
This thread is about a priest, Fr. Unni, who is passing out poisoned kookaid to Catholics and has them imprisoned at St. Cecelia's in a sick state of the soul.
I didn't see you around during the last few years when we were complaining about the Chancery stealing worker's pensions or the last ten years of any other subject we've taken up. So, let me assure you of something. We're trying to let people out of Fr. Unni's asylum. Next week, should he cook up a plot to have a pride in abortion or gluttony Mass, we'll be right on him.
Thanks for your thoughts. You make some valid points. As James says, there's no way to sugar coat it. The teachings are what they are. I walked out on Our Lord when I was in rebellion against Church teaching, way back when. I thank the people who had the courage to keep on teaching what I didn't want to hear. I owe my conversion to them.
If they had pussyfooted around about 'loving me' while keeping me in my ignorance, I would have lost out on the Love of Christ.
Catholics are being robbed of Christ's love and the gifts that come with Sanctifying Grace. Some of us are not sitting by in silence because we see the consequences to friends, family, people we love and more importantly, to Christ.
Some people will make that ugly out of anger or hurt, but those perceptions couldn't be any further than the truth.
Fr. Unni doesn't 'love' anything but the man he sees in the mirror. He is a lost soul.
Joyce, beautifully said.
Thanks to all whose love and zeal for the House of our Lord and souls contributed to this discussion.
Viva Christo Rey!
The Little Way is one of the most eloquent and heartfelt writers I have read in a long time. Thank you to her for her insights.
I have no wish to engage Mr. Croft further but between the wisdom of The Little Way and Carol (always wise and a zealot for the Faith) I hope the true and unadulterated message of the OT and NT sink in and redeem his soul. He is obviously an intelligent and well-spoken man. He will see the Light of Christ eventually. The Lord will wait for him and bring him to Himself. As He does most of us who have wallowed in the solitude of grave sin.
Vivat Christus Rex.
Jack, I very much value your zeal, your humor, your Latin and your love for Christ, His Church and souls.
I love Little Way's gentility. You bring different gifts. I much more think of our journey as a collective effort where we are all learning together, keeping each other on our toes.
Carol,
I have not said anything about your blog post in the negative, nor what you are attempting to do. You say you have not seen ne around when you have done other things. Well, where I have been and what I have been doing ( and the content of my heart whilst doing it) will all be brought into the light one day and shown up for it's worth, or lack of.
You also mentioned;
'I thank the people who had the courage to keep on teaching what I didn't want to hear. I owe my conversion to them.
If they had pussyfooted around about 'loving me' while keeping me in my ignorance, I would have lost out on the Love of Christ.'
Well, it is the action of the Holy Spirit, to convert. If you were talking to people such as some(not all) in this combox, I would say it was inspite of their words, rather than because of them, but that just might be my personality. I don't think you need to worry about anyone pussyfooting around here though, we don't seem to be that kind of cat! Jesus does allow us to have and use a personality, along with our faith. He has one Himself! It's not a 'one rule fits all' type of church, that's why people prefer different forms and liturgies I suppose. None of them should supercede the other, if done reverently. Just like people, studies show some are motivated through criticism, some through encouragement. When we encounter people with a view to loving them as Christ does, we will listen to them individually, not lump them all together with a one-off warning. "Do this or burn!" I have sounded like that in the past haha! It didn't work, needless to say. Loving others, as Christ does, even attempting it, is hard work. Learning to love myself is hard enough, then I have to give it away!
'Catholics are being robbed of Christ's love and the gifts that come with Sanctifying Grace. Some of us are not sitting by in silence because we see the consequences to friends, family, people we love and more importantly, to Christ.'
Once again, I affirm your absolute duty and right to do this. Just not at the expense of another losing out to Christ's gift of eternal salvation, for them. I am also not prepared to sit in silence when this happens to homosexuals.
'Some people will make that ugly out of anger or hurt, but those perceptions couldn't be any further than the truth.'
A blatant typed insult is what it is. To suggest homosexuals are 'making out' something is unfriendly due to anger or hurt, is patronizing and unfair. As Catholics, even if we have the truth all sewn up, can utter it perfectly, (in Latin if needs be) without love, it will just burn up, on Judgment day.
My involvement in this combox was to highlight, as a christian, what I hear people (not just homosexuals either) accuse us of. Hatred ( used in mockery, insults, judging) for the person, not the sin.
I wish you well with your campaign to bring about Christ's kingdom, the GOOD NEWS!
Malcolm said:
'.......Whereas your continuous proclamations of your superior compassion and preternatural moral acuity vis a vis Catholics on this site, who are calling out for truthful representation of Catholic teaching, seems rather staged.'
Well, Malcolm I have done a bit of acting in the past, so maybe it clings a little, who knows? It might be one of those 'once a thespian things' darling!
Seriously though, I consider myself a person who IS calling out for truthful representation of catholic teaching. I am DEADLY serious about that!
You also said,
'I will leave to God to judge my characterization of "diseased souls".
Pity you don't leave the judgment of those you perceive diseased, to that same God? It sounds as if God judges you, no-one else, but you judge others. Maybe I am mistaken though?
Oh no, it appears I'm not. You finish, by telling me.....
"I'm not quite convinced that you will be passing me through the pearly gates. Cordially."
Malcolm, we can pass through the pearly gates twice, once on the way in and then again on the way out! So who knows, i might pass you after all.
As for ending with the word cordially, if that's you being cordial, I'm glad I haven't encountered your 'unfriendly'
Whew! Malcolm, your last sentence was really, truly appalling.
PS. What the hell is 'preternatural moral acuity?' It dsounds dead posh, imagine me having that. I might put it in my blog sidebar under...'things I've been called by fellow Romans'.
Praise the Lord and pray the rosary, for ironing out of rough edges.
Actually Carol, I'm getting to feel quite at home here in your blog combox. I think people are beginning to warm to me a little (or maybe they want to set me on fire hahahaha!). I might stop by on a regular basis!
What are we discussing next? I'll read up on it first.
God bless. Praise the Lord!
Shadowlands,
I'm glad you feel welcome! Judging from your responses, you'll have to get used to snark here though. For instance, my reference to you're not being around for the ten years of other subjects wasn't a condemnation of you. (In fact, it might be virtue, LOL.) It was snark. As in the case with this subject, sometimes we get people who need affirmation that there's a bigger picture. And, sometimes, I'm talking something up that doesn't even pertain to you at all.
Do this or you'll burn pretty much captures the essence of the Deposit of Faith! We need both the gentility and people who will speak the truths of our faith with zeal and conviction. Most times, the people who are gentle and loving do not have the personalities to ever bring you to the table of the Deposit of Faith. The beauty of knowing that the Mystical Body works in unison is that we don't have any attachments to being that person's savoir. That role, as you rightfully point out belongs to God.
This is what makes Fr. Unni's problems with the First Commandment stand out like a sore thumb.
Carol,
As I say, I have no opinion, indeed it's none of my business what your blog post is about or what you and the other members do in your own church. My reason for dropping in, was that I felt the faith was being unfairly represented by some and the harmful effect that might have on a person, who from reading parts of his blog, has already encountered more than a lifetimes worth of less than gentle personalities.
"Most times, the people who are gentle and loving do not have the personalities to ever bring you to the table of the Deposit of Faith."
I haven't managed to meet enough gentle and loving christians to know if that is true, but Jesus Christ met with me at the lowest point of my life. I didn't hear shouting, I felt two strong arms lifting me up. Also, when my son was near death, He sent Our Lady. I had asked him, a few weeks earlier to let me get closer to her, if it was his will. He put that request in my heart, I am sure. He knew what was coming.I saw her, inwardly.That's all I know. That's all I can suggest to others to try. His light shining into your heart, it always affirms the person first. Who would dare look into their own heart without knowing of God's available unending mercy? If a non-christian insists that he thinks believers hate him, we must ask ourselves 'why' first, then look to the person asking, rather than deny his view as lies.That's how I see it anyway.
If I have to learn to get used to snarkiness, I may not visit too often. I have a defect of character myself, that I am working on, regards sarcasm, I wouldn't want to indulge it. It wouldn't bear fruit for any of us, ultimately. God knows where he wants me to shout my fourpenneth worth! No, if you all wanted me to stay, your tone would have to be rooted in gentleness and love. Well? No, don't answer that on second thoughts.
I do wish you all well, in your journey, also those you encounter, unbelievers and turned away hearts, as you share what the Lord means and has done, for you.
Also, if any of you are inclined, please pray for my other son, who is being operated on, on Monday. (His heart pacemaker is being removed and re=placed....again!).
Thank you Carol and Jack for your very kind comments. I like to think that we all complement one another with our various gifts in hope of defending the faith and igniting a spark in even the most hardened hearts. The Lord gave me a most profound gift of conversion and like the scene at the end of "Saving Private Ryan", I have to earn it, every day.
God Bless you!
Joyce
Joyce, you're right on with complimenting each other. Depending upon our personality and how entrenched we have become, we need different messages in different ways.
Shadowlands, I'm sorry to hear of your losses and you can count on prayers for your son.
You are preaching to the choir on loving. The urban legend that we 'hate' is coming from the poppycock of people like Fr. Unni.
We get through here on snarky humor, so I'm afraid that won't be changing but we too wish you the best.
Carol,
I didn't mean to mislead you re my second son. He didn't die! He lived. He had a very traumatic brain injury in 2007. He was given the last rites. The priest also prayed for healing. After ten hours of surgery (two ops) he pulled through! against all medical odds. I credit Our Lady's presence there, for his healing.He has had a long recovery including residual epilepsy but passed his degree and is in full time work. Prayer works!
Thanks for the good wishes and prayers for my eldest btw!
Awesome news.
Our Lady rocks.
Shadowlands: Most here are Irish. Snarkiness is in our DNA; hence, we don't understand what others mean by "snark". One thing is clear: we will not be bullied by those who would destroy our faith.
One of the fundamentals of being a Roman Catholic is the recognition that we are all "diseased souls" in
need of God's Grace.
I will bet Fr Unni says nothing
about Confession.
Shadowlands,
"Malcolm I have done a bit of acting in the past, so maybe it clings a little, who knows? It might be one of those 'once a thespian things' darling!"
Besides by me gran and raspy voiced waitresses, I haven't been called darling in ages.
"Pity you don't leave the judgment of those you perceive diseased, to that same God? It sounds as if God judges you, no-one else, but you judge others. Maybe I am mistaken though?"
You hold me in much too high esteem, if my "judging", gets you down so much. I am not competent to give a thumbs up or a thumbs down to anyone's eternal soul.
However, I will not shirk from describing persons who are consumed with hatred towards the RCC, as "diseased souls". As I initially said, I believe that to be consumed by hatred and vileness towards the RCC is a spiritual sickness. You should note that I did not attribute this vileness as an innate characteristic of their homosexuality. It's an aspect of their crippled humanity (oh, my goodness forgive me, their "disabled" humanity.) A hetero anti-Catholic is similarly a diseased soul. A raging racist is a diseased soul. A vicious misogynist is a diseased soul. The denier of the homosexual's unique personhood is a diseased soul. I'm quite liberal in use of the term.
"You finish, by telling me....."I'm not quite convinced that you will be passing me through the pearly gates. Cordially."
My unfortunate sentence structure may have caused a misunderstanding in this instance. It isn't reflective of my competence to "judge", in the sense of the fate of your eternal soul. It was denying that you will hold a Saint Peter role in passing me through the pearly gates. So, I'm not trying to keep you out of heaven. I don't expect to see you controlling the gate. Snarky? Probably. Appalling?
"Woe to him who seeks to please rather than apall"...Melville
"Preternatural moral acuity": moral insight that is below the abilities of God, but on a footing with the angels. It's a damn good phrase. Words are there to be used. I'm not ashamed of using them.
"As for ending with the word cordially, if that's you being cordial, I'm glad I haven't encountered your 'unfriendly'"
I can't remember who, someone used to send liturgical post cards to atheist Ayn Rand, in order to send her into a tizzy. It's in that vein, that I use the word "cordially". I am trying to get under your skin, but not in a nasty way. There's a difference.
Father Unni: "snarky blogs...cause serious harm...Take a look at any opinionated religious blog.... and you’ll see all manner of terrible name-calling".
Shadowlands:"If I have to learn to get used to snarkiness, I may not visit too often."
Her Master's Voice.
Hesketh
God bless you.
Unni brought this all upon himself.
He seems now to be posturing as a
bit of a dolt pretending he knew not what was going on.
This was a real win for laity in
keeping the local Church in line
with Church teachings from those
seeking self applause and no healing.
Shadowlands:
I'll take the blessing. But I think you misinterpreted me.
"Her Master's Voice" refers to that classic RCA Victor ad- the dog listening in awe to his master's voice coming from a Victrola. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:His_Master%27s_Voice.jpg
I sense organized outrage in your postings.
Hesketh,
No, I didn't misinterpret you, I've seen your comments on others blogs in the past. I am quite familiar with your style and tone.
I was following 1 Peter 3:9.'s advice:
"Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing."
'I sense organized outrage in your postings.'
Nothing organised about my outrage, it's totally disorganised!
I'm not on other blogs.
Perceiving evil in a critical posting, that's a little over the top.
I'll pray you don't go down the road of Young Goodman Brown.
Hesketh
Insult.
I perceived insult.
Had I not quoted the whole verse, I might have been accused of editing the text. I was accused of this earlier in the thread by someone else re the catechism, quite an accusatory place infact, for some..
"I'll pray you don't go down the road of Young Goodman Brown."
I don't imagine you will pray for me Hesketh, somehow. However, perhaps when you've finished analysing my soul's possible final end, you might offer a prayer for my son though? If you are a believer, that is? You've told me so much about me, yet said so little about yourself.
I'm happy to have been downgraded from a focus of evil to Don Rickles.
Believe it or not, I will pray for your son. I began at Mass this AM.
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