Sunday, September 25, 2011

Sitting in Church Doesn't Make You Catholic....


...anymore than standing in your garage makes you a car.

The Pope shot a flare across the bow of lukewarm Catholics...

11 comments:

Joseph D'Hippolito said...

Agnostics are also closer to the Kingdom of Heaven than Professional Catholic Apologists (TM).

susan said...

Boy Joseph, I don't know. Scott Hahn is one of the most genuine, Holy Spirit inwelt souls I've ever met, who has served to bring MANY people to (or back to) the Catholic Faith. Jeff Cavins is doing a yeoman's work in teaching people the Faith...his Bible studies and salvation history cd's are outstanding and ubiquitous in many Catholic parishes today...much good fruit will be reaped. Tim Staples, Steve Ray, and a whole host of "professional Catholic apologists" are leading a new orthodox evangelism in the Church today. Are there some less-than-stellar seeds in the packet...yeah; but many, many good ones doing the work of the Holy Spirit.

Carol said...

Yes..for the love of Christ, let us not drive the car off the cliff to imply the Pope meant the pagans are closer to God than Catholic apologists!

Joseph D'Hippolito said...

Susan and Carol, my view of Catholic apologetics is heavily influenced by the follies of Mark Shea and his comrades at the National Catholic Register.

When you have people like Steven Greydanus and Jimmy Akin saying that the Christian nature of the republic would be threatend by having a Mormon as president, or Shea breezily dismissing anybody who questions the Church's revisionist stand on capital punishment (or Shea behaving like the utter jerk that he is), or the vast majority of "Catholic" writers feeling sorry for a terrorist who plotted the murder of thousands -- and was still plotting when he was killed by Navy SEALS in Pakistan -- then you're wandering toward Scientology-land.

Carol said...

Joseph,

Christ's Church is never wrong. If they change a teaching, there is wisdom for that present time.

With respect to apologists, you paint 2000 years of history with quite an exaggeration of what the Pope was trying to convey.

I don't always see eye to eye with Mark, but he is a great writer and is faithful to the Magisterium...and has contributed much in the way of teaching the faith. He is passionate about his love for our Lord.

What the Pope is speaking about is people who are indifferent or reject the authority of Christ's Church to teach truth. I don't believe anyone on your list qualifies...

Joseph D'Hippolito said...

Carol, you are making a distinction between intellectual content and behavior, as most Catholics (sadly) do. As long as the "intellectual content" is "orthodox," then all is right with the world. That was one of the major reasons why many lay Catholics were slow to respond to the clercial sex-abuse crisis: They couldn't believe that priests or bishops who held "orthodox" opinions would engage in either pederasty or cover-up.

I won't comment on Hahn, Cavins, Ray and Staples because I don't know enough about them to comment. I will, however, comment on Shea. I don't give a damn how "faithful to the Magisterium" he is; he is a liar, a bully, a pathological narcissist and a cyber-stalker. People who comment on his blog have repeatedly warned him about his behavior, and have done so for the past decade! Yet he behaves no differently than he did 10 years ago. Ask anybody who has ever dealt with him.

The fact that Keating, Akin and the Apologetics Mafia protect Shea from himself not only is a disservice to the Church but to God Himself. By doing so, those apologists essentially condone his behavior.

Do you think that a holy, righteous God want people who bear His name to behave the way Shea does? Read what Christ said about the Pharisees in Matthew 23. Their "theologically correct position" did not help them against Christ's scathing (and legitimate) criticism. Would that more Catholics learn that lesson.

Carol said...

Joseph,

I am definitely not making a distinction between intellect and behavior. What I am doing is telling you that your proclamation that pagans are closer to the kingdom of heaven than Catholic apologists are is based on minutia. People are complicated. Everyone can be a jerk from time to time, especially if you are a blogger. Those moments are not the source and summit of our relationship and servitude to God.

Carol said...

Mark is obviously a man who is on a continuous pursuit of a state of Grace. You took a statement our Pope made and used it to condemn 2000 years of evangelists.

You are making sweeping statements that are really about you licking your own wounds. It is unsettling.

Joseph D'Hippolito said...

Everyone can be a jerk from time to time, especially if you are a blogger. Those moments are not the source and summit of our relationship and servitude to God.

No, Carol, they're not. But when people demonstrate their fundamental nastiness and cruelty on a blog, and claim to be Christian (let alone Catholic), it means that their faith is merely skin deep. Their faith is nothing but a pious facade. We know what Christ said about such people; whether they're Catholic, Protestant or Eastern Orthodox is a separate matter.

Mark is obviously a man who is on a continuous pursuit of a state of Grace.

I would believe that if he actually rejected his blog behavior and did something such as give up blogging for Lent, since it's such an obvious occasion of sin for him.

Carol said...

No Joseph, it does not mean that their faith is skin deep or a pious facade. These are over the top statements. You don't like his behavior, don't read his blog.

I realize you are not Catholic, but this is a Catholic blog. So when you string sentences together that include the protestant religion in with Catholicism, it comes across as if people who followed Lutheran out of Christ's One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, severing themselves from Christ's Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity is some kind of potpourri of acceptable religions.

You've done this numerous times, so I feel compelled to correct that characterization so that I am not complicit in scandalizing Christ's Passion and Death to leave us His Church. Protestants are our separated brothers and sisters. They reject Christ's wisdom and truth and have walked away from the Price of our soul'ssalvation, The Eucharist. It is a painful situation that I do not want to see diluted on this blog with false charity.

Peace.

susan said...

"No, Carol, they're not. But when people demonstrate their fundamental nastiness and cruelty on a blog, and claim to be Christian (let alone Catholic), it means that their faith is merely skin deep. Their faith is nothing but a pious facade"

Joseph, I say this in all charity, but my brother look in a mirror. I have some real issues with Shea and have stated so on various occasions, but you display, on a regular basis, more rage and inflammatory rhetoric than Shea could be tagged with in a month of Sundays. The real occasion of sin isn't for Mark to blog, but for you to relentlessly obsess on him, and on trying to tear down the Catholic Church. It's got the whiff of Jack Chick to it and it's not healthy; spiritually, emotionally or mentally. Please take some time to read Philippians 4:8, and let go of the rage.

And tonight, please pray for the man. He's got issues, we all do, but kneel in a darkened room and from the depth of your spirit pray for him to overcome all that's hindering his journey to union with God...and then make the same prayer for yourself, and mean it. Then let go; and sleep well.

In Christ's peace, I wish you well.